OK guy's I found this info on Nightriders web site in the tech note's section I just installed a set of their FL-Vied-10s on my 14SGS and they work as described on their web site worth every penny I figured this was some good information to pass along and may help some of you guy's as you mod your bike's for more performance
Do I need to remap my ECM when installing exhaust and air cleaner upgrades to my 07 and later Harley?
NO, you do not have to do anything. You can put the mufflers/air cleaner upgrades and ride the bike without having to worry about the engine The simple truth is the 07 and later HD's will run just fine with exhaust/air cleaner upgrades and you do not have to do anything to the ECM at all. Closed loop EFI operation uses feedback from the O2 sensor to maintain a constant AFR, even if changes are made to the exhaust and air cleaner. The amount of information about what has to be done '07 and later Harley when installing exhaust/air cleaner upgrades has been the subject of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt). Riders, Dealerships, Parts Suppliers and Aftermarket Shops have presented old-wives tales, bad technical information, mis-information and in some cases, just plain flat lied about the capabilities of the Delphi closed loop ECMs on these bikes. Most people hold on to their old ideas about what was required for the early EFI ECM's. Shops and Dealerships never bothered to learn new the new technology. Marketing information did nothing to dispel the differences between the old and new bikes. Sales staff did not know the difference or mis-represented what was required on the new bikes. There is more independent proof that you do not need to remap the HD EFI when installing mufflers. The March 2009 (page 66) CycleWorld dyno tested a set of slip-on mufflers on an '09 FLH, getting 5% more HP and 9% more torque on a "bone-stock, including EFI mapping" bike. Cycle World is not known as a big Harley cheerleader, so it would be a reasonable assumption that they are not going to do any special favors for MOCO. The CW information is right in line with what HD published in the Fall 2006 Enthusiast Magazine showing a 3% HP and 7% torque increase with slightly more restrictive mufflers and air cleaner kit. American Iron Magazine has also published similar articles about "no remap" upgrades involving exhaust/air cleaner changes. How much information has to be presented to Harley Riders that remapping of the ECM is not required for exhaust/air cleaner upgrades for closed loop bikes? When it can be shown that much of the "gain" in power for bikes remapped with expensive tuning software and piggyback controllers would have occurred without spending $400-$1000, riders need to start thinking about what they are really trying to accomplish on their bikes rather than blindly following the "you must remap just to add exhaust/ac" advice that has been discredited. American Iron Magazine routinely presents exhaust/air cleaner upgrades on 2007>later bikes without doing any ECM remap's. As one of the premier H-D magazines, you must assume their technical staff has some knowledge about how the Delphi closed loop ECM works. So you can be fairly sure that when AIM publishes a dyno sheet with improved power and the bike did not have an ECM remap, that the information is accurate.
The Dealer told me my engine will run too lean unless I get the Stage 1 download. Is this true?
What the Dealer told you is not quite accurate. The HD Stage 1 download will not richen closed loop ECM operation. EPA and CARB emissions regulations will not allow Harley or the Dealership to make the fuel mixture richer than it currently is right now. The Stage 1 Download does improve the Ignition Advance tables. The improvements are noticed most by Ultra riders.
I have a Vance and Hines Fuel Pak on my bike. Can I use an XIED? Do I need an XIED?
Fuel Pak and XIED's have proven to be a very effective combination. Because Fuel Pak is primarily an open loop device and the XiED's a closed loop device, they actually compliment each other. Multiple fuel controllers always has the potential for problems because they can fight for control of the fuel mixture. We always recommend you try to work with your original fuel controller before adding an IED, but the Fuel Pak/XiED combination has proven to be one that is well behaved.
I have SERT, SEST or TTS for my bike. Can I use an XIED? Do I need an XIED?
On versions of SERT/SEST sold after 2010 is no longer able to make changes to the closed loop tuning area of the ECM. Harley-Davidson has been under pressure from EPA and CARB to improve emissions compliance for the bikes, and doing this was one way to ensure compliance. So mechanics and riders will no longer be able to richen the fuel mixture under 4000 RPMs and under 40% throttle from the OEM 14.6:1. The ECM will monitor the O2 sensors to adjust the fuel mixture. This does not impact your ability to tune for full/heavy throttle or maximize your HP. But it does reduce your ability to cool the engine under normal riding conditions by changing the AFR
What causes decel popping?
For the record, decel popping is not a 'lean' issue. It has to do with fresh air mixing with unburnt fuel coming out of the engine under off throttle situations. As you noted, it started when you installed the new slip-on mufflers. Because these are a free flowing muffler, they allowed fresh air to get into the exhaust system and mix with the unburnt fuel at the header pipe under off throttle situations resulting in the little "bangs" you hear. I'm sure the Dealer tried to convince you your bike is too lean, but the closed loop O2 system kept the AFR exactly the same with the new exhaust as the OEM. That is what closed loop does. Installing the stock exhaust would eliminate the popping, but also eliminate some of the fun of having your HD. Usually the XIED's do put enough extra fuel into the off throttle mixture to reduce the decel popping. But rider style (not quite letting off the throttle, even by 1-2%), a slight throttle mis-adjustment (too tight) or a mis-adjusted TPS sensor can cause the same result of increased decel popping.
Copyright 2014 Nightrider.com Performance Products All Rights Reserved
S&P Mullen Enterprises, Inc.
Do I need to remap my ECM when installing exhaust and air cleaner upgrades to my 07 and later Harley?
NO, you do not have to do anything. You can put the mufflers/air cleaner upgrades and ride the bike without having to worry about the engine The simple truth is the 07 and later HD's will run just fine with exhaust/air cleaner upgrades and you do not have to do anything to the ECM at all. Closed loop EFI operation uses feedback from the O2 sensor to maintain a constant AFR, even if changes are made to the exhaust and air cleaner. The amount of information about what has to be done '07 and later Harley when installing exhaust/air cleaner upgrades has been the subject of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt). Riders, Dealerships, Parts Suppliers and Aftermarket Shops have presented old-wives tales, bad technical information, mis-information and in some cases, just plain flat lied about the capabilities of the Delphi closed loop ECMs on these bikes. Most people hold on to their old ideas about what was required for the early EFI ECM's. Shops and Dealerships never bothered to learn new the new technology. Marketing information did nothing to dispel the differences between the old and new bikes. Sales staff did not know the difference or mis-represented what was required on the new bikes. There is more independent proof that you do not need to remap the HD EFI when installing mufflers. The March 2009 (page 66) CycleWorld dyno tested a set of slip-on mufflers on an '09 FLH, getting 5% more HP and 9% more torque on a "bone-stock, including EFI mapping" bike. Cycle World is not known as a big Harley cheerleader, so it would be a reasonable assumption that they are not going to do any special favors for MOCO. The CW information is right in line with what HD published in the Fall 2006 Enthusiast Magazine showing a 3% HP and 7% torque increase with slightly more restrictive mufflers and air cleaner kit. American Iron Magazine has also published similar articles about "no remap" upgrades involving exhaust/air cleaner changes. How much information has to be presented to Harley Riders that remapping of the ECM is not required for exhaust/air cleaner upgrades for closed loop bikes? When it can be shown that much of the "gain" in power for bikes remapped with expensive tuning software and piggyback controllers would have occurred without spending $400-$1000, riders need to start thinking about what they are really trying to accomplish on their bikes rather than blindly following the "you must remap just to add exhaust/ac" advice that has been discredited. American Iron Magazine routinely presents exhaust/air cleaner upgrades on 2007>later bikes without doing any ECM remap's. As one of the premier H-D magazines, you must assume their technical staff has some knowledge about how the Delphi closed loop ECM works. So you can be fairly sure that when AIM publishes a dyno sheet with improved power and the bike did not have an ECM remap, that the information is accurate.
The Dealer told me my engine will run too lean unless I get the Stage 1 download. Is this true?
What the Dealer told you is not quite accurate. The HD Stage 1 download will not richen closed loop ECM operation. EPA and CARB emissions regulations will not allow Harley or the Dealership to make the fuel mixture richer than it currently is right now. The Stage 1 Download does improve the Ignition Advance tables. The improvements are noticed most by Ultra riders.
I have a Vance and Hines Fuel Pak on my bike. Can I use an XIED? Do I need an XIED?
Fuel Pak and XIED's have proven to be a very effective combination. Because Fuel Pak is primarily an open loop device and the XiED's a closed loop device, they actually compliment each other. Multiple fuel controllers always has the potential for problems because they can fight for control of the fuel mixture. We always recommend you try to work with your original fuel controller before adding an IED, but the Fuel Pak/XiED combination has proven to be one that is well behaved.
I have SERT, SEST or TTS for my bike. Can I use an XIED? Do I need an XIED?
On versions of SERT/SEST sold after 2010 is no longer able to make changes to the closed loop tuning area of the ECM. Harley-Davidson has been under pressure from EPA and CARB to improve emissions compliance for the bikes, and doing this was one way to ensure compliance. So mechanics and riders will no longer be able to richen the fuel mixture under 4000 RPMs and under 40% throttle from the OEM 14.6:1. The ECM will monitor the O2 sensors to adjust the fuel mixture. This does not impact your ability to tune for full/heavy throttle or maximize your HP. But it does reduce your ability to cool the engine under normal riding conditions by changing the AFR
What causes decel popping?
For the record, decel popping is not a 'lean' issue. It has to do with fresh air mixing with unburnt fuel coming out of the engine under off throttle situations. As you noted, it started when you installed the new slip-on mufflers. Because these are a free flowing muffler, they allowed fresh air to get into the exhaust system and mix with the unburnt fuel at the header pipe under off throttle situations resulting in the little "bangs" you hear. I'm sure the Dealer tried to convince you your bike is too lean, but the closed loop O2 system kept the AFR exactly the same with the new exhaust as the OEM. That is what closed loop does. Installing the stock exhaust would eliminate the popping, but also eliminate some of the fun of having your HD. Usually the XIED's do put enough extra fuel into the off throttle mixture to reduce the decel popping. But rider style (not quite letting off the throttle, even by 1-2%), a slight throttle mis-adjustment (too tight) or a mis-adjusted TPS sensor can cause the same result of increased decel popping.
Copyright 2014 Nightrider.com Performance Products All Rights Reserved
S&P Mullen Enterprises, Inc.
