"Will the MOCO every come out on the other side of this?"

[MKA_5966]

As a long time rider of all brands of motorcycles, I can't believe the state of ridership and "some"of the cycle manufacturers these days.

I took the plunge on a brand new SGS after a 15 year hiatus from the brand. With the kids all grown up and living on their own, home nearly paid off, less than 18 months until retirement, and Boomer friends that are still riding just more differently than they did say 15-20 years ago, if your're well into your 50's you know what I mean.

We said why not and have zero regrets in doing so.

Going way back to when I was just a kid and only dreaming of the day to own such a beast, I would have never thought motorcycles not being the epitome of cool and envy.

Especially a "Hog".

HD has gone from the bike everyone always wanted or in my case dreamed to ride, to the bike everyone despised and wouldn't ride, to only rise again from the ashes, only to fail once again for perhaps the last time.

Now a few of my friends basically the same age looking towards retirement have been directly affected by all this. 20+ year workers at the KC HD Plant which has been slated for closure by the middle of 2019. Lay-offs already taking place.

My question to everyone..."Where, why, and when did it all seem to go so bad?"

Apologies for the long dialog...

https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/05/03/harley-davidson-sales-go-from-bad-to-worse.aspx

 

[BillyBob]

Thanks for Posting!

All I know is that prices keep going up while the quality seems to going down--the younger generation is too smart for that!

 

[MKA_5966]

Thanks for Posting!

All I know is that prices keep going up while the quality seems to going down--the younger generation is too smart for that!

Exactly! Even the article refers to the pricing HD is still somehow getting away with. Not a sustainable business model for a company in trouble.

"Harley-Davidson continues to protect its premium image at all costs, and even this quarter, as sales were falling, it was able to report higher revenues (up almost 3%) because it isn't discounting its bikes like its rivals, but instead has introduced pricey new bikes equipped with its powerful Milwaukee-Eight engine. It's rising prices, not higher sales that are sustaining Harley-Davidson at the moment, yet the market is counting on it getting the equation right this time even though it's failed before."

 

[Hurricane]

HD has gone from the bike everyone always wanted or in my case dreamed to ride, to the bike everyone despised and wouldn't ride, to only rise again from the ashes, only to fail once again for perhaps the last time.

Boy I just don't understand this statement, I only know of 1 guy I ride with that "despises" HD because he rides crotch rockets, pretty much everyone else I know has one and wants a newer or bigger one or doesn't have one but is saving their $$'s to get one. Also I don't understand how that article says the Indians are taking over, I don't know anyone that has one and better yet anyone that wants to get rid of their HD to buy one. Around the Midwest I hardly ever see one out on the road either, believe it or not I see more Victory's around then I do Indians. I think the flooded market for used HD's is hurting new sales more than anything. You can pretty much pick a bike you like and find 50 of them on Craigslist, probably even one set up with the extra's you would add to it for much less than buying new.

 

[beerhunter]

Boy I just don't understand this statement, I only know of 1 guy I ride with that "despises" HD because he rides crotch rockets, pretty much everyone else I know has one and wants a newer or bigger one or doesn't have one but is saving their $$'s to get one. Also I don't understand how that article says the Indians are taking over, I don't know anyone that has one and better yet anyone that wants to get rid of their HD to buy one. Around the Midwest I hardly ever see one out on the road either, believe it or not I see more Victory's around then I do Indians. I think the flooded market for used HD's is hurting new sales more than anything. You can pretty much pick a bike you like and find 50 of them on Craigslist, probably even one set up with the extra's you would add to it for much less than buying new.

I agree with this post about the used HD's hurting the sales of the new bikes.
Around here you can find lots and lots of barely used bikes for a huge discount compared to a new one. Not to mention when buying a barely used bike you typically get yourself a seat and slip ons basically for free that the previous owner paid for which is another $1,500 or so icing on the cake. Close friend purchased a lightly used roadglide last year, it had about $3,000 in quality aftermarket parts on it and very very few miles.

 

[MKA_5966]

Boy I just don't understand this statement, I only know of 1 guy I ride with that "despises" HD because he rides crotch rockets, pretty much everyone else I know has one and wants a newer or bigger one or doesn't have one but is saving their $$'s to get one. Also I don't understand how that article says the Indians are taking over, I don't know anyone that has one and better yet anyone that wants to get rid of their HD to buy one. Around the Midwest I hardly ever see one out on the road either, believe it or not I see more Victory's around then I do Indians. I think the flooded market for used HD's is hurting new sales more than anything. You can pretty much pick a bike you like and find 50 of them on Craigslist, probably even one set up with the extra's you would add to it for much less than buying new.

There's always going to be the loyalist to the Asian bike market, thus their distaste or hate for HD. That's not where my intent was. I had a few friends that saved up enough to purchase their first HD's in the late 70's. I was still to poor to even consider it! The AMF era. The same company that was known for manufacturing bowling balls and equipment, and still are. Many consider the AMF years from 69 to 81 the worst in Harley's history. But then again, some loved them.

Their disappointment and anxiety over quality issues and the lack of mechanical reliability cost them everything they had worked so hard to save up for that they had to be sold at a huge loss to just get out from under them. They never came back to HD. Thus their dislike/despise for the brand. We still ride together.

You're spot on with the flooded used market. "But why is the market so flooded these days with new-ish ultra low mileage big bikes"?

 

[MKA_5966]

I agree with this post about the used HD's hurting the sales of the new bikes.
Around here you can find lots and lots of barely used bikes for a huge discount compared to a new one. Not to mention when buying a barely used bike you typically get yourself a seat and slip ons basically for free that the previous owner paid for which is another $1,500 or so icing on the cake. Close friend purchased a lightly used roadglide last year, it had about $3,000 in quality aftermarket parts on it and very very few miles.

I actually considered going this route myself. Still no regrets for buy new.

 

[Sealion]

Boy I just don't understand this statement, I only know of 1 guy I ride with that "despises" HD because he rides crotch rockets, pretty much everyone else I know has one and wants a newer or bigger one or doesn't have one but is saving their $$'s to get one. Also I don't understand how that article says the Indians are taking over, I don't know anyone that has one and better yet anyone that wants to get rid of their HD to buy one. Around the Midwest I hardly ever see one out on the road either, believe it or not I see more Victory's around then I do Indians. I think the flooded market for used HD's is hurting new sales more than anything. You can pretty much pick a bike you like and find 50 of them on Craigslist, probably even one set up with the extra's you would add to it for much less than buying new.

You make good points, but the Indian growth is real. I know three dedicated HD guys who now own Indians and they all said they would never go back. You don’t have to look far in this forum to hear how bad the stock seat and shocks are on the new bikes; that is not a complaint on the Indians.

I think the jury is still out on the long-term reliability of the Indians, but they do add a lot of value for a comparable price. At the end of the day, I still think your bike selection is largely personal preference, but the MOCO has legit competition in an American bike for the first time in a long time.

 

[tcuzz]

I don’t disagree with one word in this article. So sales fell 12%, Indian gains market share, & MOCO revenue was up 3%. This is a recipe for disaster. Rather than focusing on building bikes people want at a competitive price, management raises prices and has a strict policy against discounting new bikes. We aren’t going to continue ignoring the major price increases.

I have several friends that passed on a Harley and bought an Indian. We have a large Indian dealer in the area that blows away the small HD dealer. Ignoring the signs of a declining market and loss of market share is what I hate most. MOCO is a chest pounding gorilla with 50% US market share. The old mentality of “if we build it, they will come” is over. Blind loyalty is a thing of the past.

Listen to the customer. Get rid of the junk Boom radio and engineer a reliable shifter. Make TPMS standard. Build a high performance sport bike. And most importantly pricing must be more competitive. Investors will come back if you gain market share at the expense of higher revenue because it indicates you have a future. Stop relying on the past.


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[Bafflingbs]

I don’t disagree with one word in this article. So sales fell 12%, Indian gains market share, & MOCO revenue was up 3%. This is a recipe for disaster. Rather than focusing on building bikes people want at a competitive price, management raises prices and has a strict policy against discounting new bikes. We aren’t going to continue ignoring the major price increases.

I have several friends that passed on a Harley and bought an Indian. We have a large Indian dealer in the area that blows away the small HD dealer. Ignoring the signs of a declining market and loss of market share is what I hate most. MOCO is a chest pounding gorilla with 50% US market share. The old mentality of “if we build it, they will come” is over. Blind loyalty is a thing of the past.

Listen to the customer. Get rid of the junk Boom radio and engineer a reliable shifter. Make TPMS standard. Build a high performance sport bike. And most importantly pricing must be more competitive. Investors will come back if you gain market share at the expense of higher revenue because it indicates you have a future. Stop relying on the past.


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Could not have said it better myself. As far as Boom goes, Apple Play/ Android play would be a big improvement on the HU. As far as the rest goes, it’s a joke. I would also include taking que from Honda and BMW for upgrading the suspension. Stock seats absolutely suck ass! The stock windshield is a joke as well. Everyone else are putting adjustable windshields on theirs. On the bright side, they have exponentially improved everything else. The 2018 specials are a work of art. (As far as looks go) But not to the tune of $25,000. For the same price, you can get a fully loaded Goldwing, with a 7 speed automatic transmission. Don’t get me wrong, I love my Streetglide, but, I’ve had to sink an additional 12-$15,000 into it, to suit me.

 

[Gunrunner72]

Motorcycle riding as a hobby/lifestyle is on a decline across the board. Harley isn't exempt from that. It's another page in the general "wussification" of our country because all people hear are how dangerous bikes are.

The "re-introduction" of some old-style models from other manufacturers (Kawasaki KZ, Indian, etc) have filled a void with some prospective Harley buyers that didn't really exist for a long time and that's taken another slice of the pie.

I'd agree that HD could do way better on the infotainment unit. It also sucks that you have to buy a $1k set of aftermarket shocks to make them ride like they should on today's roads.

 

[1BdBagr]

Meh.... Indian is gaining market share but they're still small potatoes in the big picture. See, with Victory going bye-bye, that slice of the pie got folded into Indian. The core buyer of an Indian is a person who kinda hates HD and wants to be 'different". The problem is 100% that H-D's core demographic is dying off and they haven't done much to engage the younger generations, It's NOT JUST Harley-Davidson... All the manufacturers are not having banner years. It's because the changes in society....look at millennials and how they have embraced NOT having vehicles and using services like LYFT or UBER. It's people seeing the self-driving cars being "normal".... If you think HD is F**KED now... wait until self driving cars are common.... do u think they will play nice with motorcycles? The future doesn't look good for motorcycles long term. Look at HD saying the LiveWire will be ready in 2019... this is to entice the millennials to the Harley brand, since they likely aint gonna buy a Street Glide. LOL.

Tim

PS My local dealer has been selling the crap outta 2018's... And, everyone of us knew what we were getting into when we bought Harleys. We all knew you gotta personalize it to "make it our own". It's H-D's business model and we all know it. If you want a ready made solution then there's the CVO line. They are mostly done lol. And about Indian.... Indians are Indians in name only. Indian Motocycle/Hendee Mfg went out of business in 1953, there is no direct lineage to carry on the claim of being the oldest Mfg of motorcycles. Besides, the Indian Roadmaster is hideously ugly lol. I'll stick to my Harleys as I'm old and too stubborn to switch now.

 

[surfsup1955]

"Will the MOCO every come out on the other side of this?"

"Will the MOCO every come out on the other side of this?"

Why the hell does everyone overlook the cost of HD dealership support? HD could easily and drastically drop the price of their products if they shut down 75% of their fully stocked, tech supported dealerships.

When you buy a metric bike, you get a better price, yea! But you also get almost zero real time support. Sure they can order anything you want, but hell, so can Amazon.

I helped picked up a 2004 Police bike last month for a really good price for my youngest son. On the way home we stopped at a local HD dealer (one of 4 full service/stocked HD dealers within an hour of us) and walked in and bought a list of parts, ready on the shelf for a 15 year old bike. Try to do that with a 15 yr old metric. You’d be lucky if you had 1 dealer within 3 hours - and they probably sell more weed eaters, generators, 4 wheelers and jet skies than motorcycles.

I’ve been a biker since 1973 and as a capitalist, I just don’t have a problem paying the “Harley tax” supporting the very thing that I love to do. I selfishly plan to help keep HD in business.

 

[maxx442]

Why the hell does everyone overlook the cost of HD dealership support? HD could easily and drastically drop the price of their products if they shut down 75% of their fully stocked, tech supported dealerships.

When you buy a metric bike, you get a better price, yea! But you also get almost zero real time support. Sure they can order anything you want, but hell, so can Amazon.

I helped picked up a 2004 Police bike last month for a really good price for my youngest son. On the way home we stopped at a local HD dealer (one of 4 full service/stocked HD dealers within an hour of us) and walked in and bought a list of parts, ready on the shelf for a 15 year old bike. Try to do that with a 15 yr old metric. You’d be lucky if you had 1 dealer within 3 hours - and they probably sell more weed eaters, generators, 4 wheelers and jet skies than motorcycles.

I’ve been a biker since 1973 and as a capitalist, I just don’t have a problem paying the “Harley tax” supporting the very thing that I love to do. I selfishly plan to help keep HD in business.

Must be a NC thing. Hell, my Harley stealership didn't even have new fork seals or plugs in stock. Five day wait to have them shipped in. They have tons of overpriced accessories on hand though.

 

[Hurricane]

You make good points, but the Indian growth is real. I know three dedicated HD guys who now own Indians and they all said they would never go back. You don’t have to look far in this forum to hear how bad the stock seat and shocks are on the new bikes; that is not a complaint on the Indians.

I think the jury is still out on the long-term reliability of the Indians, but they do add a lot of value for a comparable price. At the end of the day, I still think your bike selection is largely personal preference, but the MOCO has legit competition in an American bike for the first time in a long time.

Man seats don't cost that much and a nice set of used take off adjustable shocks can be had for less than $250 from "individuals" selling on eBay , or better yet deals from fellow forum members thanks again TEK, if that is really the only complaint. There just isn't anything you can change to make an Indian looks as good as HD SG IMO. The nostalgic fenders are really only liked by a few and the plastic side panels on them looks like there should be an advertisement like you see on a bus stop bench. Sorry but these bikes are just ugly even when they tried to black them out like HD does "successfully", what do they call it dark horse or something? As for price they are right in the ball park with HD as well as a Goldwing. I'm sure there are things Indian riders complain about just like HD guys complain about radios but you can say that without about anything. Why does my KTM dirt bike that claims they are race ready not even come with a skid plate?????? Very few people buy a bike and never change a thing on it, any brand.

 

[Hurricane]

Motorcycle riding as a hobby/lifestyle is on a decline across the board. Harley isn't exempt from that. It's another page in the general "wussification" of our country because all people hear are how dangerous bikes are.

Wussification is really the problem that will effect all motorcycles.

 

[surfsup1955]

"Will the MOCO every come out on the other side of this?"

"Will the MOCO every come out on the other side of this?"

Must be a NC thing. Hell, my Harley stealership didn't even have new fork seals or plugs in stock. Five day wait to have them shipped in. They have tons of overpriced accessories on hand though.

Yea that would be very rare around here. I live near New Bern, NC and have a local dealer 5 minutes from my house, one hour to the south is New River HD, one hour west is Sheltons HD, and one hour north is Hometown HD.

In addition to the running gear these dealerships keep in stock they all have plenty of accessories (clothing too) - but hey I totally get that, I retired from a very competitive business years ago. You do what you can to keep your doors open and your employees fed. Pretty sure that’s how things work in Colorado too.

Which goes back to my larger point inside this discussion: capitalism; USA; mom; apple pie; etc.






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[glide2012]

I am 50 and have a heart issue that has cut my riding down due to effects of medication
Nothing makes me happier than sitting in my shed listening to music coming out of my Street Glide and polishing and detailing my ride
To me and a lot of mates our Harley’s mean a lot to us
We have **** dealerships that treat us like sheep but at the end of the day I would not want anything else in my shed
A mate just borrowed against his house to purchase a CVO Street Glide and couldn’t be happier
Down under we pay a premium but it is only money
Ride safe


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[16FLHXS]

Here in SE MN have seen exactly 2 Indians, and we regularly ride down by the "Miss" so personally even having Indian be a MN company (owned by polaris) I rarely see them, and have only heard one person even consider them in the group of riders I know.
I think here its a Hard $20k+ pill to swallow for some when you can only ride half the year. Me personally its worth every penny because it keeps me sane, and other people alive lol.

Case in point, my uncles still solely base their Harley opinions on the AMF era because thats what they knew when they grew up, so 3 of them own goldwings, because they feel Harleys are leaky junk. Yet they refuse to even go ride a new ultra complaining they are expensive, but last i checked their Hondas were more $$$ than i paid for any of my harleys. yes even the new 2016.

Ultimately its just like anything else, you always hear the negative over the positive, it doesnt matter what it is, and if you like it or not generally most of us live in an echo chamber, and it affects how you see certain things.

 

[Hurricane]

Look out boys after Travis Pastrana jumped the water fountain at Ceaser's palace you will not be able to find an Indian Scout on the showroom. Yeah right! That bike was nothing like the old 750 sporty that Evel jumped with.