Continued Oil Loss

[yegg]

OK, here is what is going on. I recently replaced my main shaft seal due to oil leaving my crank case and ending up in my primary. I replaced the shaft that the seal sits on as well.

Everything worked perfectly for about 2000 miles. Then I noticed that my oil level was at the half way point on my dip stick. Today after another 500 miles (so 2500 since seal replacement) I checked the oil and it is 3/4 down from full on the dipstick.

My bike is not leaking oil. I do not smell oil in the exhaust.

Tomorrow I am going to pull the derby cover and try to determine if there is an excess of oil in my primary drive case.

If the oil is going to my primary drive case (again), I have obviously screwed someting up with the seal replacement. But what?! I bought (and used) the Jims tool to remove the old seal and seat the new seal. I really thought it went well. I made sure to put assembly lube on the new seal and the new shaft it sits on.

What could I have done wrong? Are there any tips and or tricks that could help if I have to go through this again? Could the oil be coming from somewhere else? I could have sworn that the only place engine oil can get into the primary is through the main seal.

Please help.

Ride safe.

Thanks.

 

[hulkss]

Let us know what you see in the primary case.

 

[yegg]

Ok I just pulled the inspection cover and my oil level looks like it is at the bottom of the diaphragm spring or just below the diaphragm spring retainer. No oil poured out of the bike like it did the last time.

Also, I did a cold oil check while upright and it is one hash mark up from bottom.

Please tell me someone has a suggestion as to what to do next. I’m kind of stumped. To me it seems like the primary seal is good. Am I wrong? If I’m not wrong, where should I check next?

Thanks

 

[hulkss]

Today after another 500 miles (so 2500 since seal replacement) I checked the oil and it is 3/4 down from full on the dipstick.

The dipstick is not always a perfect measure. You're only using about a quart in 3000 miles.

Ride the bike and keep track of the oil level. Try to measure exactly the same way every time.

 

[yegg]

Will do. I’m not a mechanic but I’m curious as to what in general can cause this to happen. I didn’t have the problem until almost 50k on the bike. Am I riding differently? Actually I am. I tend to keep it in gears longer. I would have thought that higher sustained RPMs would cause my air cleaner to be oily but it isn’t. Maybe I’m just catastrophizing the issue but I would like to know possibilities. If it is potentially a large issue I better start saving my money now.

Thanks.


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[yegg]

Today after commuting to work and back (about 114 miles round trip) I checked the oil level on the dipstick and no loss. I did notice the presence of a lot of oil in my air cleaner. I know folks have posted about only filling up their crank cases to 3.5 quarts at oil changes but I am already down (maybe a quart?)!

 

[yegg]

So now I’m getting a bit nervous. Maybe paranoid. I think my primary is filling up again. But, for the sake of argument, let’s say it is not. Where does one begin troubleshooting from here? If oil is not smelled in the exhaust, it is not transferring to the primary, and there isn’t enough on the air cleaner to justify the breathers, what could it possibly be? Where does one look next?


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[hulkss]

Oil usually goes past the piston rings or valve guide seals. You can burn a quart every 1000 miles and not see any smoke.

Maybe it's time to refresh the top end.

 

[yegg]

I just dumped a second quart in at 4200 miles since the main seal repair. When I do my oil change in a few weeks I will measure what comes out of the primary and let you know.

I almost hope it is the main seal again but then I have to figure out how I screwed that up the last time.

Ugh!

Ride safe.


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[Tarzan]

On my ‘17 SGS, after my first oil change I rode about 1000 miles after the 1000 mile service. I was leading a ride with friends from my Victory riding club. I had traded my Victory for the ‘17 and we stopped at a station for gas. We pulled out of there and my oil light came on. I was a little less than 1 quart low. Of course my buddy’s had a field day with that, but I was concerned that my new bike with 2000 miles on it had lost that much oil in 1000 miles. So I went to the dealer the next day to inquire about the possible problem. I was told that Harley considers a motorcycle that uses less than 1 quart per 1000 miles is normal. I could not believe that. They had done the 1000 mile service and told me that they leave them 1/2 quart low, otherwise they tend to push oil into the air cleaner. I do know that if I use compression while downshifting to slow me down that I smell oil. So I don’t do that.
Anyway, in my case, the oil loss was only in the break-in period. I have 30,000 miles on it now and don’t lose much if any between oil changes.
I have been told by a couple of different HD mechanics that Harley engines are actually designed to use a little bit of oil. I find that hard to believe, but it could be plausible.

 

[yegg]

That’s interesting about the down shifting as I always engine brake. I think this winter I will do new piston rings and rehone the cylinder. Until then I will just pour oil into her. Of course I have an oil change (55k) coming up shortly and I will know more when I measure what comes out of the primary.


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[BlkDragon]

I asked my mechanic regarding this same thing and was told losing oil is normal for Harley motors. I am so stun when I heard that, we are in year 2020 and if Harley still can't figure out and still living in the past (but charging customer crazy money for their bikes) I am done with Harley motorcycles.

 

[hulkss]

Air cooled motors can run hot and are subject to wide variations in operating temperature depending on engine load, ambient weather conditions, and air speed. As such, they must be built with greater internal clearances to tolerate thermal gradient and thermal expansion/contraction issues.

Well designed liquid cooled motors have thermostatically controlled coolant temperature and other than cold start-up, operate in a much more stable thermal environment.

Yes, H-D's are going to have some blow-by and burn some oil. That's how a little lubricant gets to the top compression ring on the piston. My 114 M8 uses about a pint of oil between 5000 mile oil changes.

 

[baggertim]

just to add in a little,GM says a qt per 2000 miles is normal usage ,unless under heavy loads which coild cause more.Fuel efficient engines use lower tension rings and manufacturers have taken the skirts off pistons for a light weight combo,lighter weight,better economy,my point is not just a harley problem.

 

[yegg]

Continued Oil Loss

Thanks for reminding me that my 2009 Chevy suburban burns oil too! Although I think I got that almost fixed with getting the rear main seal replaced when the transmission was replaced and getting a module that turned off the active fuel management.

Between my Harley, Suburban, and Ducati I think I’m keeping Amsoil in business.

Oh, and all 3 are high mileage so I go through more oil changes than most too!

Oh well, I love them all.

Ride safe.


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[baggertim]

You may also want to try a top engine clean,running a cleaner thru the throttle body will help with carbon deposits around ring glands and valves.

 

[Tarzan]

I live in Arizona. We run 75-80 all the time or we’d get run over. I’m pretty sure carbon build up isn’t my problem. And I run it kinda hard sometimes as well. I think that compression braking just naturally places too much pressure on the backside of the rings and pushes oil into the intake system. Just the nature of the beast. I think it’s hard on the motor anyway. I used to do it all the time, but just don’t anymore to help preserve the motor and not have to smell the oil burning.

 

[baggertim]

!!let me clarify,i have never done a top engine clean on a bike,this was meant for yeggs truck not his bike!!!Oil usage in engines is a common problem in the auto industry also.With todays poor fuel qualitys and emissions carbon is a issue,may or may not be the same with these bikes.

 

[yegg]

OIL LOSS UPDATE

So today I did my oil change.

1. The primary held exactly what I put in. (YEAH!)
2. The transmission was perfectly fine. In fact, as the oil drained it damn near looked new.
3. The crank case held a bit more than 1.5 quarts.
3a. At last oil change I put in 4 quarts and about 1000 miles ago I added another quart.
4. The oil filter brought the measured crank case oil up to 1.75 quarts.
5. The air filter was dry (K&N) but the assembly (Roland Sands Clarity) was quite oily.

Am I now looking at a top end rebuild? Could this be a piston ring problem? I really don't want to do a bolt on big bore kit (several suggestions there) when it could possibly be piston rings and simple cylinder wall honing.

Where do I go from here?

Thanks.

 

[hulkss]

OIL LOSS UPDATE
Where do I go from here?

Buy a kit of new cylinders and pistons (rings included) from H-D. Also a gasket set.

The new pistons have a coating on the skirts, that is why you should get new ones. The new cylinders are not too expensive.

Clean the heads (combustion chambers and valves with a baking soda spray blaster). Hand lap the valves and put in new valve seals.