NGOT8R's 107ci (AKA: The Komodo Dragon) has been wounded

NGOT8R

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Feb 15, 2015
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The Problem

Alright folks, after what seemed like a never ending search to find the elusive hammering noise that suddenly appeared in my newly built 107 motor at about the 2154 mile mark, I believe I've found the problem. Let me say that I hated to have to tear into my motor again this soon, especially given the amount of money that I spent to build it, but I couldn't stand the noise any longer and was determined to figure out what was going on. I recently tore down the top end and found that the Pistons and cylinders were badly scored. I showed my friend (who has been a certified HD mechanic for over twenty years), pics of the carnage and he immediately told me that the Pistons were trashed and needed to be replaced. He also said that he was certain this was the cause of the hammering noise that I had been experiencing. I asked what could have caused this so quickly and he told me that it could have been caused by the Pistons being too tight cylinder bores, or it was the result of a dry start; meaning during the initial startup following the build, the oil hadn't fully circulated and reached the piston oil jets and the heat and friction caused damage to the Pistons and cylinders at that time. The problem then became progressively worse over time. Now, I did use generous amounts of assembly lube in all of the critical places during the build, but just not in the cylinder bores (I only rubbed them down with oil before installing the Pistons). After talking a little more with my friend, he shared with me that a method he uses to alleviate a dry start, is to pour a quart of oil in the bottom end, fill the oil tank, connect a battery charger to the battery and prime the motor by pressing the starter button for 15 seconds, fifteen times in a row (with the spark plugs out and the ignition coil disconnected), to get oil up to the top end.

The Solution

To make sure the new Pistons fit the cylinders properly this time, I will take them to my friend's cylinder boring specialist and have them checked and honed to the new Pistons. I will then make sure to prime the motor very well before startup this time around. As for the pics of the carnage, well here they are:
 

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Pistons removed and closeup pics of scoring marks.
 

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Cylinders removed and closeup pics of scoring.
 

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Are you going to check the fit of the old parts? If the fit is good or close you may have not found the problem because engines probably do run dry for initial start up all the time on new builds. When have you heard of this happening because of a dry start? I just don't know how common it is.
Good luck with the rebuild,
Mike
 
Cylinders removed and closeup pics of scoring.



i'm not a mechanic and I may get flack for this as I'm learning. What catches my eyes are the score marks at the 12' O clock on the cylinders. That looks to me like uneven wear caused by the pistons coming in at an angle or a burr more so than a lack of lube on a dry start. Would the motor be hot enough to cause the lube you threw on there to have dried up before the oil got into the cylinders. Also if the pistons are hitting at an angle or the cylinders aren't perfectly circular or out of spec, wouldn't that cause the the hammering sound you mentioned?
 
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Are you going to check the fit of the old parts? If the fit is good or close you may have not found the problem because engines probably do run dry for initial start up all the time on new builds. When have you heard of this happening because of a dry start? I just don't know how common it is.
Good luck with the rebuild,
Mike

Thanks OldMike. Yes, I will have the old Pistons checked against the cylinders before any machining work is done. Although I am very new at this, I was very methodical on the build and followed my service manual to the letter. After talking things over with my friend and examining the parts, there's clear evidence of the Pistons having contacted the cylinders in a very unfriendly way, so at this point I have to trust his professional opinion that either the clearance between the cylinders and Pistons was slightly off to begin with, or it was caused by a dry start. I will definitely post results of the testing after it's done. One thing is for certain, Komodo will get up off of the operating table and stand tall and mean again real soon. LOL
 

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i'm not a mechanic and I may get flack for this as I'm learning. What catches my eyes are the score marks at the 12' O clock on the cylinders. That looks to me like uneven wear caused by the pistons coming in at an angle or a burr more so than a lack of lube on a dry start. Would the motor be hot enough to cause the lube you threw on there to have dried up before the oil got into the cylinders. Also if the pistons are hitting at an angle or the cylinders aren't perfectly circular or out of spec, wouldn't that cause the the hammering sound you mentioned?

That's quite possible 14POSE. The scoring marks are actually at the 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock positions in both cylinders. I'm still learning as I go too and hope to know more soon. I'll keep everyone posted.
 
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Thanks hulkss. I'm definitely going to lubricate the hell out of the Pistons and cylinder walls this time around.
 
Sorry to hear of your troubles.... the pics looks very similar to the damage I had in my 120ST.... cylinders were not in spec ( out of round ) scored the walls and wiped out the pistons....
 
Thanks hulkss. I'm definitely going to lubricate the hell out of the Pistons and cylinder walls this time around.

Yes, a good idea, however, I've read of problems using assembly lube made for cams and bearings on pistons. It can gum up the ring groves when it burns out. Some builders recommend two stroke engine oil on the cylinder walls for this reason.

I'm going to try the AC-9900:
"Specifically formulated to lubricate the cylinder walls, piston rings, ring grooves, and pistons during engine assembly. Leaves no hydro-carbon deposits, helps prevent scuffing, and promotes ring break in during the first critical moments when a new engine is started."
 
Sorry to hear of your troubles.... the pics looks very similar to the damage I had in my 120ST.... cylinders were not in spec ( out of round ) scored the walls and wiped out the pistons....

Thanks Spazz. What indicators (i.e., hammering noise, oil consumption, loss of power, etc.), did you have that led you to take your 120ST in to get repaired? What did the dealer tell you was the root cause of your cylinders being out of round? Funny thing is, my motor didn't burn oil at all and didn't smoke or lose any power, it just made a hammering noise during acceleration and deceleration.
 
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Yes, a good idea, however, I've read of problems using assembly lube made for cams and bearings on pistons. It can gum up the ring groves when it burns out. Some builders recommend two stroke engine oil on the cylinder walls for this reason.

I'm going to try the AC-9900:
"Specifically formulated to lubricate the cylinder walls, piston rings, ring grooves, and pistons during engine assembly. Leaves no hydro-carbon deposits, helps prevent scuffing, and promotes ring break in during the first critical moments when a new engine is started."

Good info hulkss! Thanks.
 
New Pistons arrived today. I figured since I had to do this again, I might as well give myself a little extra bump in compression, so I went with the CP 107-6 Pistons which have a 6cc dome on them. Here are pics of the damaged 10.25:1 CP flat tops and the new 11.0:1 CP 107-6 domes Pistons for comparison.
 

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I usually just wipe the cylinder with oil on and never had an issue . I also run a break in oil for the first 500mi. then change to Amsoil or Klotz. looks like a clearance or cylinder out of spec to me . make sure your shop is using a Hone plate when boring and honing your jugs. I also will heat cycle in the shop, run a couple miles let it cool check plugs, run it 25mi cool , 100mi cool, 500mi oil change and burn her down. some say give it 1000mi break in before you get into her but I hadn't had any issues on any builds yet .



New Pistons arrived today. I figured since I had to do this again, I might as well give myself a little extra bump in compression, so I went with the CP 107-6 Pistons which have a 6cc dome on them. Here are pics of the damaged 10.25:1 CP flat tops and the new 11.0:1 CP 107-6 domes Pistons for comparison.
 


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