2017 warranty discussion

[Mojo]

I was at lunch with friends from a dealer today at the HD dealership here in Nashville. They are one of a few that have a full restaurant inside. The subject of aftermarket parts vs Warranties came up so I decided to be a "fly on the wall" and just listen to different opinions etc.
One of the guys works the parts counter. He said they often add accessories to the bike to attract buyers and increase profits. Recently the zone mgr for HD was in and saw a set of V&H pipes on a new bike in the showroom. He told them he would have to black list the warranty on the bike if they didn't take them off - they took them off! Also mentioned was using aftermarket tuners much like the FP3. One of the Tech's said once married to your ECM it "Stamps" it, so even if you add the factory map back in, they can tell. He says all dealers were warned that at anytime, HD can void out a warranty for aftermarket mods and The Motor Co. is deeply concerned about their recent run in and fines with the EPA.

I wanted to share this info with the group as it seems (at least near term) Harley is very serious about monitoring warranty issues and aftermarket parts EVEN if they are not related to the actual claim. They mentioned it's all up to the local dealers discretion and what they feel they want to do or could get away with. Please be aware and share any info you learn as well.

 

[Designflaw]

MoJo
that's good information. You are also correct, that just about all programmers leave a trail. Each dealer treats Mods differently as well. I have friends in the car and bike business that are aftermarket friendly, they just file the claim as they need without the need to tell. Its money in there pocket and they get to keep a customer. You are protected however by the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act which requires the Manufacturer to show that the aftermarket improvement caused the issue but who wants it to go that far.

 

[16FLHXS]

I don't know how Indian handles aftermarket parts, but if you want to turn away customers that arent die hard Harley fans, this is the way to do it.

The survival of any auto or motorcycle brand depends on support from enthusiasts via the aftermarket.
For instance, i started searching for parts before i even purchased my bike, and being that I purchased my SGS in Florida, my exhaust system showed up before the bike ever made it up to Minnesota (it was winter or i would have ridden it back)

 

[azglocker]

Confirms what we've been hearing since the 2017 line released, stock or you're on your own. I know one of my local dealers writes warranty claims to make it sound like I noticed, probably for good reason (example, my Switchback had 2 leaky shift shaft seals and a leaky head cover which was seen during other repairs) and they wrote them up as "customer saw oil coming from..."

HD may have dodged a bullet on the tuners but now they're putting on a bullet proof vest. It's sure sad and annoying that what is probably the most modded vehicle on earth is now banned from being customized. I want to stay open minded but I also don't see how Harley is at fault for what we do. I'd gladly sign a waiver for every part I buy saying "I promise not to drive this on the road" if that allows business to be performed as normal. Heck, what difference does it make to them if I break the law and leave the lot in a cloud of burning rubber with illegal exhaust? I'm the operator breaking the law, they just did what I told them to.

I also get that the epa is shooting at the big targets. You can discourage the market faster by targeting a large company faster and more effectively than just a mom and pop shop. I just don't like the epa and their meddling affairs. They think they're going to save the world by exterminating the manbearpig and you couldn't convince them otherwise.

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[Mojo]

azglocker- If you want to know just how screwed up the EPA is, just look at how many decals they force the manufacturers to put on a Ladder!!!!

 

[hulkss]

As far as I know the rules have not changed. H-D is just forced to be strictly compliant now. Your warranty has always been at risk with any modifications. You gotta pay to play. Buy the parts you want where ever you can. Install 'em yourself or have an independent shop do the work. No new problems as far as I can tell.

I can tell you that the factory big displacement EPA compliant options 114, 117, and 120 cubic inch engines are damn quick and you will not be missing out on much fun. I know, I have one.

 

[16FLHXS]

Your warranty has always been at risk with any modifications.

Please explain to me why they feel they can ignore the Magnuson-Moss Act?

Everyone has been a bit doom and gloom about it, what are the proper channels or procedures to fight warranty denials?
Is a third party involved? What are the chances of winning a denial fight? Do you just argue with them till your blue in the face?

Is riding to Milwaukee, and ghost riding the Motorcycle thru their front window an acceptable response to a warranty claim denial?

 

[hulkss]

Please explain to me why they feel they can ignore the Magnuson-Moss Act?

They don't. You change the bike. They say it's your fault based on the change. Good luck fighting it.

 

[Mojo]

16FLHXS- It's called EPA mandates and corporations facing millions in fines. Unfortunately, a dealer may honor or overlook your mods in the interest of customer relations. However, they have to face The Motor Co. and they are (at least for now) not very lenient on warranty issues where aftermarket parts are concerned. Dealers have to take screen shots and send in reports and defective parts to get reimbursements.

 

[16FLHXS]

They don't. You change the bike. They say it's your fault based on the change. Good luck fighting it.

Yet according to the law they have to prove the aftermarket part caused the failure.

I would assume that means more than the tech just saying "yup"

 

[16FLHXS]

16FLHXS- It's called EPA mandates and corporations facing millions in fines. Unfortunately, a dealer may honor or overlook your mods in the interest of customer relations. However, they have to face The Motor Co. and they are (at least for now) not very lenient on warranty issues where aftermarket parts are concerned. Dealers have to take screen shots and send in reports and defective parts to get reimbursements.

The tuner wasnt causing failures, so its just more to effect of denying claims to save $$$$

I hope this doesnt happen to me because the MOCO will not like the result. (hopefully dealers will stand by their customers)

 

[hulkss]

hopefully dealers will stand by their customers

Not a chance if it involves compliance with the EPA and you have broken the rules.

You can get well over 100 HP in an EPA compliant solution from H-D with a warranty.

 

[16FLHXS]

Not a chance if it involves compliance with the EPA and you have broken the rules.

You can get well over 100 HP in an EPA compliant solution from H-D with a warranty.

So we are bowing to a organization with no true capacity to enforce laws, but only suggest to our government how to handle pollution related issues.(unless obama expanded their powers which is possible)
what the hell are we doing in this country?
sure HD offers a 100hp epa compliant solution, for half the original price of the motorcycle.
EPA compliance should impact warranty claims by 0.

 

[hulkss]

Here is over 110 HP and Torque, for $1595 in parts. No warranty or EPA trouble. Upgrade to standard 107 M8.

http://www.harley-davidson.com/store/milwaukee-eight-stage-iii-kit-%E2%80%93-107ci-to-114ci

 

[Designflaw]

My dealer told me they will stand with any improvement they sell, and they do not recommend the new buy a tune SE that's coming. V&H, and FP3"?" Is what they are pushing.

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[goose2]

There are quite a few of are home town dealers that will cover a lot of things for us. The problem I see is when your out on the road and you break down what's that dealer going to do for you.

 

[SGBrian]

I was going to trade my 14 for a new M8 several months ago but decided against because of the MOCOS new tougher stance against mods. I never could get a straight answer from my dealer so I assumed once I switched pipes I was with out warranty. I loved the bike but it sounded terrible in it's stock form. Once I learned of some bikes having oil pressure issues I run away fast. I never do mess with the engines except to change pipes and slip ons. I have a feeling the tougher stance is here to stay. I guess you can stand and argue about warranty with service department but in the end unless you have the cash to lawyer up they will probably tell you to go pound sand.

 

[intimidator32]

Part of the reason i switched to HD from Triumph was the availability of aftermarket parts , for mods. If they become so strict that you can't even switch out the slip-ons to make it sound like a harley then this will be my one and only harley. I'll just go back to Triumph or some other manufacture that make more performance right out of the gate and not worry about sound anymore, i can barely hear now as it is.

 

[tcuzz]

The parts that are sold as Genuine HD parts/accessories will not void your warranty because they have been tested and approved by HD. All Genuine HD Parts such as an engine/exhaust upgrade for your bike will meet EPA/CARB regulations. In these cases you will have no warranty concerns (unless you install yourself and screwed something up).

If you choose to go with anything else aftermarket (outside of Genuine HD parts/accessories), your warranty is at risk. It is more difficult today for dealers to warranty bikes with aftermarket upgrades to the engine and/or exhaust because of the EPA fine placed on MOCO. Magnuson Moss won't protect you if you have an engine issue with an aftermarket tuner like the FP3. Your bike no longer meets emissions standards and is therefore illegal.

From the 2015 Owner's Manual: This limited warranty will not apply to any motorcycle which has off-road or competition parts installed to enhance performance, a trailer hitch, or has other unapproved modifications (even if these modifications include genuine Harley-Davidson parts and accessories that are not approved for use on your motorcycle). These modifications may void all or parts of your new motorcycle limited warranty. See an authorized Harley-Davidson dealer for details.

 

[hulkss]

I agree, and H-D has CARB compliant offerings that will deliver over 120 RWHP and run great. The catalytic converter(s) are now aft far enough to be a non issue in the new exhaust systems.